{"id":124919,"date":"2026-06-06T10:29:14","date_gmt":"2026-06-06T14:29:14","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.ludwig-van.com\/toronto\/?p=124919"},"modified":"2026-06-06T11:53:25","modified_gmt":"2026-06-06T15:53:25","slug":"interview-director-robert-leitner-playwright-garrett-m-ryan-abrams-talk-twin-sues","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.ludwig-van.com\/toronto\/2026\/06\/06\/interview-director-robert-leitner-playwright-garrett-m-ryan-abrams-talk-twin-sues\/","title":{"rendered":"INTERVIEW | Director Robert Leitner & Playwright Garrett M. Ryan Abrams Talk About The Twin Sues"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"L:
L: Actor Tipelo Hildebrand (Sue Johnson); R: Actor Katelyn Doyle (Sue Jackson) in Bird on Stage\u2019s The Twin Sues (Photo courtesy of Bird on Stage)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

In the middle of a fictional (at least, so far) war between Canada and the US, once childhood best friends and former border guards Sue Johnson and Sue Jackson deal with the realities of life under the annexed and reunified twin cities of Sault Ste. Marie, now under under Michigander rule. The \u201cTwin Sues\u201d share a checkpoint on the newly nationalized bridge between the two halves of the city.<\/p>\n

Twin Sues by Bird on Stage Productions is a new Canadian play by award-winning playwright Garrett M. Ryan Abrams<\/strong>, directed by Robert Leitner<\/strong>. It\u2019s a dark comedy that takes a documentary-style approach to examining how a friendship can slowly unravel in a world where everything has changed. What remains is the very human desire to belong to something bigger than yourself.<\/p>\n

Underneath the dark humour, the work tackles bigger questions of borders, nationalism, authority, and how systems live on, even once their original purpose has disappeared. It\u2019s about personal lives, and their relationship to the larger world \u2014 political theatre with an absurdist sense of humour.<\/p>\n

The Twin Sues takes the stage from June 10 to 14<\/strong> at Toronto\u2019s The Assembly Theatre<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

Personnel<\/h2>\n

Garrett M. Ryan Abrams is a Northern Ontarian playwright, director, and dramaturge based in Sault Ste. Marie, and Artistic Director of Bird on Stage. Abrams\u2019 plays have been presented across Canada, and garnered several awards. He focuses on outsider voices and regional identities, working class realism, and the smaller communities often often left out of Canada\u2019s cultural conversations.<\/p>\n

Garrett also serves as the Theatre Manager \/ Artistic Director of the Sault Community Theatre Centre. He holds undergraduate and master\u2019s degrees in Theatre & Performance Studies from York University.<\/p>\n

Robert Leitner serves as director and lighting designer for the production. The Jewish American\/Canadian theatre practitioner joined the Bird on Stage Productions team in 2018 as an actor. He has since acted, directed, and designed lighting for the company\u2019s productions, and taken on the role of Artistic Producer.<\/p>\n

The Twin Sues is Robert\u2019s full solo directorial debut for Bird on Stage.<\/p>\n

The production features Katelyn Doyle<\/strong> (she\/her) as Sue Jackson. Katelyn is a classically trained Canadian actor and creator, a co-founding member of Half Blind Owl, a theatre collective dedicated to creating original offbeat Canadian theatre.<\/p>\n

Toronto-based actor, creator, and arts marketer Tipelo Hildebrand<\/strong> plays Sue Johnson. A graduate of the Acting Conservatory at York University, Tipelo also serves the Director of Marketing & Outreach and co-owner of Bird On Stage Productions.<\/p>\n

The creative team includes set, prop, costume designer Madeleine Gagnon<\/strong>, and Toronto-based assistant set and prop designer Bunya Muchaeva<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

LV spoke to director Robert Leitner<\/strong> and playwright Garrett M. Ryan Abrams<\/strong> about the show.<\/p>\n

\"L:
L: The Twin Sues director & lighting designer Robert Leitner; R: playwright & Bird on Stage Artistic Director Garrett M. Ryan Abrams (Photos courtesy of Bird on Stage)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

Robert Leitner & Garrett M. Ryan Abrams: The Interview<\/h2>\n

\u201cInterestingly enough, I came up with this idea or what spawned into this idea a number of years ago,\u201d says Abrams. He was living in Ottawa for a time, and his initial conception of the piece focused on interprovincial tensions.<\/p>\n

\u201cI had this kind of interesting view where it felt like people who I as interacting with,\u201d he says, \u201c[I was] getting [glimpses] of radicalization because they were so complacent. I started looking at what that would look like specifically.<\/p>\n

Abrams is now based back in Northern Ontario, in the Canadian Sault Ste. Marie, where he lives with the juxtaposition of the American side.<\/p>\n

\u201cWe are essentially the same people,\u201d he says. At the same time, politics has a way of inserting itself into the discussion. \u201cThe feeling that the world around you is unstable. The very miniscule differences between people can grow and radicalize.\u201d<\/p>\n

That\u2019s the essential emotional basis of the play.<\/p>\n

Documentary-Style<\/h3>\n

A documentary-style lens is the framework of his approach. Garrett was influenced by the classic National Film Board of Canada documentaries he\u2019s viewed over his lifetime.<\/p>\n

\u201cI kind of leaned into that Canadiana [aspect],\u201d he says. Some of the scenes will have a retrospective feel, while others are very present in the here and now.<\/p>\n

\u201cI was actually born and raised in Florida,\u201d adds Leitner, \u201cwhich makes this show perfect for us as a playwright\/director duo.\u201d<\/p>\n

Robert notes that he moved to North Bay about 12 years ago for school, so he\u2019s also familiar with Northern Ontario. He\u2019s based in Toronto today. \u201cI feel like I can come into this play with an interesting perspective,\u201d he says.<\/p>\n

As a director, he was also influenced by the kind of documentary-style shows he saw as a kid. \u201cI remember growing up and watching TV, and flicking through channels and seeing aliens, and how the pyramids are built,\u201d he says. It\u2019s those late night quasi-documentaries with a lurid edge. \u201cYou almost don’t want to see it, but you’re forced to.\u201d<\/p>\n

The Play<\/h3>\n

How do the two characters, the Twin Sues, come across on stage? How do they embody those larger issues behind the story?<\/p>\n

\u201cWe\u2019ve worked quite a lot with our actors on what’s different, what is the same,\u201d Leitner says. It involved a lot of preliminary discussions. \u201cOriginally they were like, […] these characters are not the same,\u201d he says.<\/p>\n

But, in working through the story, the two characters have come closer, as old friends do. Robert says even their movements have come together, mirroring each other and in sync, again in the manner of lifelong friends.<\/p>\n

\u201cThat’s not something we’ve planned,\u201d Robert says. \u201cTo be honest, a lot of [it] has to do with Tipelo and Katelyn, our actors with this show.\u201d He notes that they\u2019ve brought their lived experiences to the parts.<\/p>\n

\u201cBefore I moved to Canada, I was told a lot of things about Canadians,\u201d Leitner says. He heard about classical Canadian passive-aggressiveness. \u201cIn Florida, it’s all just anger,\u201d he laughs. Living in Canada, in Northern Ontario, was a very different experience. \u201cI felt like I could walk the whole city.\u201d<\/p>\n

Experiencing that duality has informed his approach to the story. \u201cI very much relate to the Canadian side, Sue Johnson in this show,\u201d he says. In the story, it focuses on an identity that is being stripped away by forces outside the character\u2019s control.<\/p>\n

Garrett adds, \u201cI think, from a zoomed out level, outside of the performances […] there are the subtle differences, and the absurdity of latching onto those differences.\u201d<\/p>\n

When the US government launched its seemingly endless rounds of punitive tariffs against Canada, he noticed how the formerly friendly climate between ordinary citizens of each nation began to change. He saw people antagonizing each other, insulting each other on social media.<\/p>\n

\u201cJust very minute and bizarre things that they’re latching on to,\u201d Abrams says. He was struck by how it was mirrored in the microcosm of the two Sault Ste. Maries, one on each side of the border. \u201cThe two Sault Ste. Maries are so similar.\u201d He points out that the northern Michigan identity finds itself in things we consider quintessentially Canadian, like maple syrup and toques. \u201cIt very much highlighted this idea for me. People, when stress tested, will latch onto those things.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cI have family that still lives in the states,\u201d Robert adds, \u201cwho were very eager to visit before.\u201d Nowadays, he says they want to wait \u201cuntil everything’s cleared\u201d.<\/p>\n

\u201cWatching, to be honest, my own family creating a divide for me, even just living in Canada.\u201d He made a joke about making Florida an 11th province to family members, and it went over like a lead balloon.<\/p>\n

\u201cThere is still so much tension, on the personal level, over nothing,\u201d Leitner says. \u201cYou can hardly contextualize it.\u201d<\/p>\n

The Personal & The Political<\/h3>\n

Those personal observations fed into the story and the production.<\/p>\n

\u201cThe ones that are actually stirring conflict are not the ones feeling the [stress],\u201d Abrams comments.<\/p>\n

In the play, the two friends become radicalized against each other over a conflict they had nothing to do with.<\/p>\n

\u201cI think something that’s also been very interesting to explore […] is this idea of setting vs plot,\u201d Robert adds.<\/p>\n

The outside world influences personal lives, just as the actions of governments far away influence life in two small cities. The play examines the ideas, not the specific politics.<\/p>\n

\u201cIt’s very easy to villainize America right now,\u201d Robert continues, \u201cbut that’s something that we’re really trying not to do here.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cAs a writer, that was important to me,\u201d Garrett adds. \u201cIt’s really about these two average, everyday people who are caught in the crossfire.\u201d<\/p>\n

His script takes its cues from other politically minded satires. \u201cI grew up a big fan of Dr. Strangelove and other Cold War satires, and more recently, The Death of Stalin. I love these really [over the top] satires.\u201d He feels the time for it is ripe \u201cIt’s now a time to bring back these types of satirical works.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"L-R:
L-R: Actor Katelyn Doyle (Sue Jackson); Actor & Bird on Stage Director of Marketing & Outreach Tipelo Hildebrand (Sue Johnson); set, prop, costume designer Madeleine Gagnon; assistant set and prop designer Bunya Muchaeva (Photos courtesy of Bird on Stage)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

Bird on Stage: Indie Theatre<\/h3>\n

Abrams notes that the success of the project rests on the whole team. \u201cThe biggest key thing is the team that we were able to bring together.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cI think it’s important to note that, Bird on Stage, we’ve been producing our own shows since 2017,\u201d Leitner adds. That began with Fringe Festival shows, developing into mainstage productions over the last couple of years. Their indie spirit is strong.<\/p>\n

\u201c[We\u2019re] not waiting around for other people to let us do our work,\u201d Robert continues. \u201cThis year, for us, what was really important was that we really want to challenge ourselves. This is definitely our most ambitious project yet.\u201d<\/p>\n

Set, prop, costume designer Madeleine Gagnon<\/strong>, and assistant set and prop designer Bunya Muchaeva<\/strong> were brought in to upgrade the creative team. Bird on Stage has worked to create relationships in Toronto, \u201ca city full of art\u201d, as Leitner puts it.<\/p>\n

\u201cOne of the things that I think excited me the most is working with Madeleine Gagnon<\/strong>,\u201d Leitner says. \u201cShe’s our designer. Garrett and I gave her a lot of crazy ideas. She took it right head on and built us a full set. It’s just been so wonderful for us as a company.\u201d<\/p>\n

He also credits Tipelo Hildebrand, who\u2019s acting as both co-star and Director of Marketing & Outreach. \u201cShe’s helped raise our profile a lot.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cI think one of the things that’s been really important is that […] since we started doing the Fringe circuit, and that was pretty much out of high school, I’ve called it garage band theatre,\u201d Abrams says. \u201cWe still hold that ethos close to us. We really like that DIY style and feel.\u201d He calls is polished, but also crafted.<\/p>\n

Bird on Stage brands itself as outsider theatre.<\/p>\n

\u201cIt will really appeal to those who don\u2019t necessarily feel represented in a lot of mainstream theatre,\u201d Garrett says. It\u2019s about telling the stories of the ordinary, everyday people, rather than the exceptional. Those everyday voices are often overlooked.<\/p>\n

\u201cIn this story, it’s focused on small city, working class stories that are affected by other things,\u201d Garrett says.<\/p>\n

Final Thoughts<\/h3>\n

\u201cI think people will be excited to see that it’s an engaging and interesting and timely story, but [especially for] anyone who’s had deep friendships, and seen that friendship strain over issues that are outside of themselves,\u201d Abrams says.<\/p>\n

The story is about those long term friendships that extend back into childhood. The ones that you take for granted.<\/p>\n

\u201cThat nostalgia is a big piece of that play,\u201d Garrett says. It\u2019s about those special moments people remember from their high school days. \u201cThose stories are great, and have their place as well. For me as a writer, this is always what I’ve been drawn to. The story’s not going to end with them fundamentally changing the world. But, it makes a big impact on them as individuals.\u201d<\/p>\n

It\u2019s a story that takes place well behind the headlines, where the impact is felt on individual people.<\/p>\n

\u201cOne of the tag lines that perfectly encompasses it, history is made by ordinary people,\u201d Robert adds. \u201cIf there’s one sentence that describes the show, it’s that.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u201cIt\u2019s twofold,\u201d Garrett explains, \u201cone, the ordinary people are those who really shape history \u2014 the other side is that people often tap into that sense of [that] anyone can make an impact.\u201d That includes having the power to further radicalization or make propaganda.<\/p>\n

\u201cEvery action has a reaction, and it keeps going after you’re gone.\u201d<\/p>\n

Details<\/h2>\n

The Twin Sues takes the stage at The Assembly Theatre<\/strong> in Toronto from June 10 to 14, 2026.<\/strong><\/p>\n